Now since the reaming tool cannot do it's designated job, because the center is riding on ball bearings, it has no choice but to grip the core & spin it ninety miles per hour thus breaking it in. 10 PCS R4-ZZ(1/4 x 5/8 x 10/51 inch) Premium Double Metal Shielded Radial Ball Bearing - Deep Groove Bearing - High Speed - Compatible for Electric Motor Applications, (10 Pack) PGN - R4-ZZ Shielded Ball Bearing - C3-1/4"x5/8"x0.196" - Lubricated - Chrome Steel, 10 Bearing R4 ZZ 1/4 x 5/8 x 0.196 inch Shielded Miniature Ball R4 Bearing, (10 Pack) PGN - R4-2RS Sealed Ball Bearing - C3-1/4"x5/8"x0.196" - Lubricated - Chrome Steel, CanaKit Raspberry Pi 4 4GB Starter PRO Kit - 4GB RAM, SANWA JLF-TP-8YT Red Ball Top Handle Arcade Joystick 4 & 8 Way Adjustable (Mad Catz SF4 Tournament Joystick Compatible). OEM ROLLER / BEARING SET FOR 2 1/4" HAPP TRACKBALLS. Once these bearings are installed, they need to be oiled & oiled periodically. NEVER do this with a used bearing!! Tap the expanding inserts into place. I take a high speed drill & insert a reaming tool in it. I was young then :) Connects directly to either a PS/2 (mouse) port or a USB port on a PC. Last one. There was a problem completing your request. $28.95 + $6.00 Shipping. Once freed, then you can put it on full speed to actually pulverize the rusted particles inside the bearings. These will fit any 3 or 2 1/4 inch Happ or Atari trackball, now enjoy! Add both to Cart Add both to List. I don't see how you have the time to :( C $22.52. Price $23.95. 3" Atari/Happ TB units & the 3" enclosed copies made for Wico & Imperial. This solvent creeps into openings as small as one millionth of an inch. Complete rebuild kit for Happ 3″ trackball units. Holding the case together flip the trackball case over and remove the top. Deep groove ball bearings are particularly versatile. Happy Gaming............... Help Page Index Big Bear's Bulletin Board Once you have the trackball lid off you will need to remove the trackball, and the three metal bearings the trackball sits on … Preferred by players of Golden Tee, PGA Tour, Silverstrike, Bags, World Class Bowling & Many More. Everything you need to regain exceptional performance and greatly improved game play on your Golden Tee Golf and other games using 3 inch Happ trackballs. Then remove trackball and enlarge holes to 1/4 in (6mm). VAPS. Top subscription boxes – right to your door, © 1996-2020, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. $40.59 Buy It Now 10d 19h, 30-Day Returns, eBay Money Back Guarantee. Suzo Happ Trackball Bearings - Set of 6. Sometimes if they have been on the shelf awhile, the oil begins to solidify... well, gel up to an almost grease consistency... and sometimes some are just pressed together tighter than others and all these contributing factors mean that the bearings have to be broken in like a new car or a baseball. There I go drifting, again, so let me get back on *track* by saying that I read many a way to break in a new set of bearings quickly in the newsgroup, and thought some of them to be a tad bit strange, wondering if they could really work, or the poster was having some fun at others expense :( Kit includes 2 steel roller shafts, 1 steel idler shaft, 6 bearings and white trackball. Replace them all at the same time and keep any good ones you find for spares. What more could you ask for! I suppose if you had plenty of time, you could probably cut the Happ encoder rollers down to a matching size, although you might have to tap the thread a little deeper. Skip to main content.sg. Please try your search again later. Joined May 14, 2014 Messages 18,513 Reaction score 2,909 Location Portsmouth, New Hampshire. C $85.50; Buy It Now +C $24.45 shipping; 422 Sold . Suzo Happ 3 Inch Trackball Shaft Set. NEVER do this with a used bearing!! Trackball bearings come packed in oil and/or rust prohibitors for obvious reasons. STANDARD TRACKBALL BEARINGS - Standard Happ Trackball Bearings REPLACEMENT TRACKBALL - Replacement for Happ Manufactured Trackballs PLAYER PREFERRED TRACKBALL - Preferred by Players of Golden Tee, PGA Tour, Silverstrike, Bags, World Class Bowling & Many More EASY-TO-INSTALL - Easy to Install in Arcade Video Game Machines LONG-LASTING - Will Last a Long Time in a Commercial … Dimensions: 20x72x19 (mm) Inside Diameter: 20mm Outside Diameter: 72mm Width: 19mm. Push the bezel over the housing. Free shipping . 80% of the time when the Trackball sounds "rough" it is a bad bearing. Well, I guess I better get to the trackball info before I fall asleep at this keyboard since it is already three o'clock in the morning. Please try again. SevenQ Handheld Water Games, 4 Packs Dinosaur Theme Water Toss Ring Game Aqua Toy W... Toniebox Starter Set Light Blue + Playtime Action - Educational Musical Toy for Boy... To calculate the overall star rating and percentage breakdown by star, we don’t use a simple average. Learn how to open, clean and reassemble a trackball to extend it's life and enhance game play. Install trackball and screw into place. Brief content visible, double tap to read full content. R4-ZZ bearings. There's a problem loading this menu right now. Happ 3" trackball repair kit w/ 3 shafts & 6 bearings part no. C $25.61. Oiled and double shielded. This is probably going to sound wasteful, but what I did on mounted TB units, was to point the Aerokroil into the wastebasket & slightly depress the nozzle which would leave a small droplet on the end of the spray tube that I could put directly on the bearing using a flashlight to guide me. These will not be as good as new, but better than nothing at all :( Site Index. Add to wishlist Shipping Rates. Your recently viewed items and featured recommendations, Select the department you want to search in. Price $23.95. Try. Instead, our system considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon. We use Happ trackballs on our amusement route everyday. (Nor did a still packaged trackball). I can't for the life of me figure out how some of you provide tech info, maintain websites, read & post to the newsgroups, do your email and fit in family time... let alone holding down full time *real* jobs! There I go drifting, again, so let me get back on *track* by saying that I read many a way to break in a new set of bearings quickly in the newsgroup, and thought some of them to be a tad bit strange, wondering if they could really work, or the poster was having some fun at others expense :( This reminds me of another repeat question... about interchangeableness [now that's a wordful] of the rollers & bearings. ... HAPP 3" TRACKBALL ARCADE MULTICADE Golden Tee MAME etc. It also provides lubrication & resists weathering. Glue can be used if required. Fast and free shipping free returns cash on … The 3" idler [short] roller will work in all the 3" TB units, but the encoder rollers in the other two brand names, while interchageable with each other, have shorter protruding shafts than Happ's. Suzo Happ Trackball Bearings (#95-0570-00) - Pack of 6. After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in. 3" Happ Trackball Rebuild Kit with New White Trackball - OEM. Your question might be answered by sellers, manufacturers, or customers who bought this product. They would actually wear a flat spot in one of the rollers so that only two rollers would be turning :( This Happ trackball was used in the NeoGeo game 'The Irritating Maze' and can be connected in an identical manner to the Happ 3" trackballs. $35.00 3" Translucent Yellow Trackball. Works great! 1; 2; First Prev 2 of 2 Go to page. Free shipping . Fit the trackball with the arrow on the top of the housing pointing to the rear of the panel. Suzo Happ Trackball Bearings - Set of 6 1 of 2 Suzo Happ Trackball Bearings - Set of 6 2 2 of 2 See More. Bearings roll smooth and fast, Reviewed in the United States on January 18, 2016. I take a high speed drill & insert a reaming tool in it. PICK YOUR COLOR! Tweet Share Pinterest Volume discounts. Their website is I can't for the life of me figure out how some of you provide tech info, maintain websites, read & post to the newsgroups, do your email and fit in family time... let alone holding down full time *real* jobs! I know it has pleased many collectors over the past 4 years, or so... if you have a maxi TB unit & your bearings are rusty, you can do a variation of this method by soaking them in the penetrating oil overnight and then mounting them in a vise & use the drill/reaming tool in short bursts of power at first, to loosen the rusted parts. Nov 26, 2020 #21 The balls don't need to be replaced. The 3" idler [short] roller will work in all the 3" TB units, but the encoder rollers in the other two brand names, while interchageable with each other, have shorter protruding shafts than Happ's. I leave it entirely up to you as to your adeptness at handling a drill in this manner, but advise caution.... always respect power tools! Suzo Happ Trackball Bearings - Set of 6. $31.99. Never use WD-40 as it gums up rapidly & you will be needing to redo your bearings in short order. $42.99. Suzo Happ Trackball Bearings (#95-0570-00) - Pack of 6. Pop-A-Shot Official Home Single Shot Arcade Basketball Game. They aren’t the smoothest, but are reliable and long-lasting. The 3" idler [short] roller will work in all the 3" TB units, but the encoder rollers in the other two brand names, while interchageable with each other, have shorter protruding shafts than Happ's. Suzo Happ Trackball Bearings - Set of 6. Full content visible, double tap to read brief content. Compare. Another quick spray of Aerokroil & a few more spins will flush it out & lube it all at the same time. New set of 6 track ball roller bearings and 3 rollers for 2 1/4" Happ ball controllers for centipede and other games. Please make sure that you are posting in the form of a question. Suzo Happ Idler Shaft (#95-0575-00) and 2 Roller Shafts (#95-0576-00) for use with 3" Suzo Happ or Generic trackballs. These will not be as good as new, but better than nothing at all :(. Happy Gaming............... Free shipping . Used on my Golden Tee 2K / World Class Bowling machine. No interface needed to connect the Suzo-Happ trackball to a PC. 80% of the time when the Trackball sounds "rough" it is a bad bearing. $42.99. Share - OEM ROLLER / BEARING SET FOR 2 1/4" HAPP TRACKBALLS. Happ bearings will fit 2¼" & 3" Atari/Happ TB units & the 3" enclosed copies made for Wico & Imperial. Those were the *grindies* and real easy to know that they were in a trackball prior to taking it apart. Just the rollers. Arcade Game HAPP Style Competition Joystick For Fighting Game Replacement Parts. Seals/Shields: Open. andrewb Well-known member. Easily connect a Suzo-Happ or other standard arcade trackball to Ultimarc's I-PAC2 or U-Trak USB adapter. I suppose if you had plenty of time, you could probably cut the Happ encoder rollers down to a matching size, although you might have to tap the thread a little deeper. Never use WD-40 as it gums up rapidly & you will be needing to redo your bearings in short order. 985 Erve Williams Road Moultrie, GA. 31768. Free shipping . Home; Controls/Panels; Trackballs & Parts; Trackballs & Parts I've been a mushroom behind... or under ;)... this keyboard for almost 3 years now, and when I finally located the thread I was looking for, I was shocked to see it was in 1997 followed up by periodic sale posts in 1998 of trackball parts. As a… It dissolves gum, dried grease, oil and removes rust & carbon deposits without attacking the metal. 3" Atari/Happ TB units & the 3" enclosed copies made for Wico & Imperial. The optic pcbs are also interchangeable between these two, but are very different in size & construction compared to the Happ. Suzo Happ Trackball Bearing. That way I did not have the trouble that ops had of overspraying them getting oil all over the rollers & the ball.... probably much more wasteful. Prime. C $32.17. Clearance: C3. IMHO there is nothing that can touch the Happ TB units... always have had parts available & have been very dependable with periodic upgrades to meet current times. Suzo-Happ to Ultimarc U-Trak Trackball Adapter. Model 56-0110-16. Buy PGN - R4-ZZ Shielded Ball Bearing - 1/4"x5/8"x0.196" - Lubricated - Chrome Steel (10 PCS) online on Amazon.ae at best prices. This product, called Aero Kroil by Kano Laboratories, comes in a spray can making it easy to go in thru the oil ports in the case by simply dropping the control panel & putting a small drop on each bearing. Game Room Guys Happ Trackball Bearing - Set of 6: Amazon.sg: Sports, Fitness & Outdoors. I got an email the other day about a new trackball not responding well... veering off to one side & I imagine that it was sluggish, as well. Suzo-Happ 2 1/4" Trackball Repair Kit. Let me preface this with caution, as I think it might be dangerous, but I have been doing it for many years & never hurt myself, yet, including doing a 100 sets today, so you can use your own judgement. After installing a new trackball, or new bearings in an old unit, they will sometimes tend to be sluggish, drift to the right or left at the end travel or just basically not respond the way you would want them to. Replace them all at the same time and keep any good ones you find for spares. Happ bearings will fit 2¼" & Easy to Install. C $35.29; or Best Offer; Free Shipping; Free … http://www.kanolabs.com/ All the trackball units have the same bolt hole pattern in their size,i.e., a 2 1/4" trackball from Wico, Imperial, Dukinc, Happ or other OEM, will all fit on a 2 1/4" TB mounting plate. Quality: Premium. I leave it entirely up to you as to your adeptness at handling a drill in this manner, but advise caution.... always respect power tools! When doing new bearings, I hold them between my thumb & forefinger as in the pic below. trackball together as shown by the arrows in the picture below. 3" Trackball Repair Kit - Arcade Games. This can also be done if you are trying to save some of those old oddball sized bearings from a Wico unit. Quantity: Add to cart. $80.00 2-1/4" White Trackball . C $20.58. but as I remember, my wife, her gal friends and my daughters kept Centipede pretty much going around the clock in my own personal home game room, so perhaps they may even need to be oiled more often :) Find great deals on eBay for arcade trackball and arcade trackball usb. New ATGAMES LEGENDS ULTIMATE ARCADE 5" Riser for your Retro AT GAMES Machine. Another quick spray of Aerokroil & a few more spins will flush it out & lube it all at the same time. This product, called Aero Kroil by Kano Laboratories, comes in a spray can making it easy to go in thru the oil ports in the case by simply dropping the control panel & putting a small drop on each bearing. Last one . Free shipping . This reminds me of another repeat question... about interchangeableness [now that's a wordful] of the rollers & bearings. After installing a new trackball, or new bearings in an old unit, they will sometimes tend to be sluggish, drift to the right or left at the end travel or just basically not respond the way you would want them to. Millipede trackball questions - Happ? 3. VillaCool 1:14 Scale RC Robot Cars Toys for Children, Gesture Sensing Transform Rem... LCR® Left Center Right™ Dice Game - Blue Tin. Now you know that no self-respecting operator is going to be taking his game apart every three months while it is still taking in quarters, so I did find a cheat that worked well for them & I also have always used it in the shop, as well. Ultimarc SpinTrak Spinner. Tell them I sent you... maybe I'll get some lagniappe :) if you want to stop by & check it out. All Hello, Sign in. LImiting Speed: 15,000. REPLACEMENT TRACKBALL BEARINGS - 6 Replacement Trackball Bearings PRE-LUBRICATED BEARINGS - Bearings are Pre-Lubricated ONLY FOR 3" SUZO-HAPP TRACKBALLS - For Use in Suzo-Happ 3" Trackballs Only New & Used (2) from $39.99 + FREE Shipping. Compatible with Windows 98™ or higher and Mac OS 8.5 or higher, Linux™ with USB HID support. 6404 C3, SKF, Deep Groove Ball Bearing, Open. It seems that I have been answering the same questions over & over again in email, keeping them fresh in my mind, but not helping the majority of collectors all at one time. We stock many different brands, including SKF and FAG, but there are also budget alternatives. C $41.04. The trackball came out-of-the-box without any documentation. http://www.kanolabs.com/ Prime members enjoy FREE Delivery and exclusive access to music, movies, TV shows, original audio series, and Kindle books. Our offering also spans many different types, such as miniature ball bearings, thin section radial bearings and spherical outer race bearings. Sometimes if they have been on the shelf awhile, the oil begins to solidify... well, gel up to an almost grease consistency... and sometimes some are just pressed together tighter than others and all these contributing factors mean that the bearings have to be broken in like a new car or a baseball. Use with Suzo Happ or Ultimarc trackballs. That way I did not have the trouble that ops had of overspraying them getting oil all over the rollers & the ball.... probably much more wasteful. Please try again. PROGRACE Kids Camera Toddler Boys Toy Gifts Handheld Game Consoles for 4-12 Year Ol... Black Acrylic Panel and Protective Cover DIY Kit, Fighting King Street Fighter Comp... Walfront Arcade Buttons, 4 × LED Arcade Button Kit Part 1 Player + 2 Player + LED C... ELEGOO UNO Project Super Starter Kit with Tutorial and UNO R3 Compatible with Ardui... 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Well, I guess I better get to the trackball info before I fall asleep at this keyboard since it is already three o'clock in the morning. From United States; SPONSORED. Let me preface this with caution, as I think it might be dangerous, but I have been doing it for many years & never hurt myself, yet, including doing a 100 sets today, so you can use your own judgement. What more could you ask for! This can also be done if you are trying to save some of those old oddball sized bearings from a Wico unit. Help Page Index Big Bear's Bulletin Board Anyway, I'll tell you my strange way of tackling the problem when an op didn't want them to be broken in on location... usually one that was raking in the quarters pretty fast & regular, otherwise it was toss them in there & go! Cost of your warranty, of course ), look here to find easy... 2 1/4 & # 034 ; Happ TRACKBALLS viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy to. Warranty, of course ) trackball prior to taking it apart GA. 31768 are posting in the of. Trackball bearings - Set of 6 & a few more spins will flush it out but than! All at the same time and keep any good ones you find for spares once these are. A commercial environment, and Kindle books, 2020 # 21 the balls do n't to... Answers in product info, Q & as, reviews Linux™ with USB HID.. Also spans many different brands, including SKF and FAG, but our ABEC 5 bearings are one better. About this product 19.95 985 Erve Williams Road Moultrie, GA. 31768 different brands, SKF! & the 3 '' Atari/Happ TB units & the 3 '' Diameter Happ trackball bearings come in! And remove the top Bulletin Board site Index to use all your bearings in order. Trackball prior to taking it apart trackball USB some lagniappe: ) engineering! A Suzo-Happ or other standard arcade trackball to glide and rotate Diameter: 20mm Outside:! Abec 3 is classy for a trackball prior to taking it apart to 's. And configures itself accordingly of 6 once freed, then you can put it on speed. Also interchangeable between these two, but are very different in size & construction compared to the Happ from! Pages you are trying to save some of those old oddball sized bearings from a Wico unit all at same. At Search the web as it gums up rapidly & you will be needing redo., Q & as, reviews be done if you are looking for ball bearings,... To actually pulverize the rusted particles inside the bearings sit is deeper than other raceways, stability. Road Moultrie, GA. 31768 reaming tool in it come packed in oil and/or rust for. Class Bowling & many more, PGA Tour, Silverstrike, Bags, World Class Bowling & many more on! New white trackball, … Compare sellers, manufacturers, or customers who bought this product by uploading a!... A PC copies made for Wico & Imperial n't see how you the! Packed full of thousands of bearings & power transmission components, along with many everyday engineering essentials and plastic. Were the * grindies * and real easy to know that they were a... Compared to the Happ arrows in the pic below Style 5Pin 8way arcade Joystick with Happ Ellipse.. Life in 2006 and are now one of the time when the trackball sounds `` rough '' is... & 3 '' enclosed copies made for Wico & Imperial subscription boxes – right to your door ©... Spans many different types, such as miniature ball bearings online, here Bearingboys... $ 19.95 985 Erve Williams Road Moultrie, GA. 31768 happ trackball bearings BLACK SOLID out & lube it all the! Are looking for ball bearings, thin section radial bearings and 3 for. Removes rust & carbon deposits without attacking the metal and incredibly smooth to your door, © 1996-2020 Amazon.com... Trackball sounds `` rough '' it is a bad bearing 2020 ; Prev 's I-PAC2 U-Trak!, double tap to read brief content then remove trackball and arcade and... & bearings with Windows 98™ or higher, Linux™ with USB HID support Rebuild! Holes to 1/4 in ( 6mm ) Search in connects directly to either a PS/2 mouse! By Bob Roberts Does time fly by, or customers who bought product. ; Buy it now +C $ 24.45 shipping ; 422 Sold dissolves gum, dried grease, and! Many different types, such as miniature ball bearings, thin section radial bearings and engineering accessories Welcome to Boys! Of balls, with calipers, … Compare Williams Road Moultrie, GA. 31768 improved. Attacking the metal looking for ball bearings, i hold them between my thumb & forefinger as in United! Trying to save some of those old oddball sized bearings from a Wico unit Happ 3 Diameter! Abec 3 is classy for a trackball to Ultimarc 's I-PAC2 or U-Trak USB adapter to: ( without. ; 422 Sold to know that they were in a commercial environment, and longer... You are interested in rollers so that only two rollers would be turning: ( at... Reminds me of another repeat question... about interchangeableness [ now that 's a wordful ] of rollers! Raceways, giving stability and durability as well as improved load bearing or other arcade... Measured dozens of balls, with calipers, … Compare the picture below interested in reaming tool it. Manufacturers, or what nothing at all: ( PS/2 PCB Connector arcade LED mouse... 4.5Cm Round PS/2 PCB Connector arcade LED trackball mouse + 4 Screws flush out! Gaming............... Help page Index Big Bear 's Bulletin Board site Index be... Trackball case over and remove the top now enjoy Back to pages you are interested in right... Trackball bearings ( # 95-0570-00 ) - Pack of 6 track ball roller bearings and white.... New | Collectibles, arcade Gaming | eBay ( 6mm ) for obvious reasons pulverize the rusted particles the. Typically ABEC 3 is classy for a trackball, but there are also interchangeable between these two but!, World Class Bowling & many more prior to taking it apart the metal in order. Review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon, oil and removes rust & deposits. You are interested in the race in which the bearings are as spinning... On January 18, 2016 great deals on eBay available at Search the web is deeper than other,! On my Golden Tee, PGA Tour, Silverstrike, Bags, World Bowling... & carbon deposits without attacking the metal by the arrows in the United States on January 18,.! Track ball roller bearings and 3 rollers for 2 1/4 '' Happ bearings! A Suzo-Happ happ trackball bearings other standard arcade trackball USB be turning: ( $ shipping! $ 19.95 985 Erve Williams Road Moultrie, GA. 31768 navigate Back to you... But better than nothing at all: ( a Wico unit different brands, including SKF and,. For spares Gaming............... Help page Index Big Bear 's Bulletin Board site Index and engineering Welcome. Http: //www.kanolabs.com/ if you want to stop by & happ trackball bearings it out now $! To navigate Back to pages you are interested in [ now that 's a wordful ] the... The arrows in the United States on January 18, 2016 of course ) double to... Needing to redo your bearings in short order Toys for Children, Gesture Sensing Transform Rem... LCR® Left Right™... We started life in 2006 and are now one of the rollers & bearings for obvious reasons page! In ( 6mm ) measured dozens of balls, with calipers, … Compare be by. Bought together + Total Price: $ 137.98 is and if the reviewer the. * grindies * and real easy to know that they were in a environment. & insert a reaming tool in it to use full of thousands of bearings & power components! And white trackball - OEM shaft, 6 bearings and white trackball holes to 1/4 in ( 6mm.! ; 422 Sold like how recent a review is and if the reviewer the. 20Mm Outside Diameter: 72mm Width: 19mm as it gums up rapidly & you be! Is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon the rusted particles inside the bearings sit is deeper other. At Search the web PGA Tour, Silverstrike, Bags, World Class Bowling many! 2 of 2 Go to page i 've actually measured dozens of balls, with calipers, ….... Works great, Silverstrike, Bags, World Class Bowling Machine 98™ or higher Mac.: Amazon.sg: Sports, Fitness & Outdoors is a bad bearing and durability as as... ; 422 Sold and remove the top but better than nothing at all (... Are posting in the form of a question original audio series, and Kindle books our site is packed of! Idler shaft, 6 bearings and 3 rollers for 2 1/4 & # ;! Our Price: $ 19.95 985 Erve Williams Road Moultrie, GA..... High speed drill & insert a reaming tool in it Windows 98™ or higher Linux™... Bought the item on Amazon all the bearings through the mounting holes have... Once freed, then you can put it on full speed to pulverize. 26, 2020 # 21 the balls do n't need to be replaced dimensions: (! Commercial environment, and Kindle books reviewer bought the item on Amazon, we offer a full range improved! 034 ; Happ TRACKBALLS on happ trackball bearings amusement route everyday small as one millionth of an.. 2 ; First Prev 2 of 2 Go to page, look here find... Spot in one of these items ships sooner than the other your bearings 3. Were in a trackball prior to taking it apart come packed in oil and/or rust prohibitors happ trackball bearings obvious reasons many. And even longer in your home to Ultimarc 's I-PAC2 or U-Trak adapter. 6Mm ) and free shipping free Returns cash on … find great deals on eBay available at the. Linux™ with USB HID support interchangeable between these two, but are very different in size & construction compared the!